When posting requests for help in this forum, please remember to include full details about your system setup, as well as any pertinent error messages.

Information about system setup should include the version of PHP that is being used, the name and version of the Database Management System that is in use and the operating system that the webserver/DBMS is running on.

It is a massive waste of time for you and for the developers on this forum to post error messages without this information. We just reply asking for that information, and then you have to respond giving it.

By providing this information from the outset you are likely to get help quickly.

Please also note, that I am going to get strict on this. If you post requests for help without giving this information, your request may be deleted.

Of course, sometimes this information is not needed, but it is better to include it, just in case.


Thanks !

Tim Green
Webmaster
www.rawveg.org (Coming Soon)

Perfect Tim! I think we should make this an overall rule that is valid for all forums. I am affraid that I need to work out some forum rules and add a link to them in my sig.

I will post it in the FAQ section so it is easy to maintain by all of us Managers. But it won't be within 2 weeks because I am going on vacation soon and have a deadline to meat before that.

I already posted your FAQ (which I have to turn into a general one later) here: www.UDzone.com/go?1271 (please be aware that you can edit the post yourself - now all Zone Managers have controll over the FAQs section. So feel free to make any changes that you want to make)

Waldo Smeets - www.UDzone.com Webmaster
------------------------------------------
www.UDzone.com : A dynamic Dreamweaver,
Ultradev and Fireworks site for developers
by developers.
------------------------------------------

Excellent Waldo ! Thank you !

Hope you have a great vacation ! <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Tim Green
Webmaster
www.rawveg.org (Coming Soon)

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Please also note, that I am going to get strict on this. If you post requests for help without giving this information, your request may be deleted.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

This may seems a good option, but do not forget that sometimes people can't even know how to have these informations.

Usually people who request help have never written a line of code by themself, and it may happens that they don't even with wich DB server they're dealing with.

I'm probably exagerating, but I have met such people. So don't be to quick on deleting request, because sometimes they need help to figure out what kind of information developper need to know. And sometimes language and server version won't help at all. PHP 4.0.5 doesn't differ a lot from PHP 4.0.6, does it <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> Though version 3 differs a lot from version 4, and that would be useful indeed.

But neverthless, I understand the problem. But where is the boundary between request that are not enough documented and request that are ? Don't forget that sometimes people are lazy and prefer to ask question instead of looking by themselves. <i>Always easier to ask than to search</i>

Actually, I just wonder if the requested information will be enough to help directly. Time will tell


"First they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you Win..." Ghandi

I do take your point, but unfortunately you are misinformed.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Though version 3 differs a lot from version 4, and that would be useful indeed.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Not really as PHP3 isn't supported via PHAkT, though, in fact there are enough differences between PHP v4.05 and v4.06 for it to make a massive difference in the way an error should be dealt with. (Look at ODBC support). This has a bearing on the way to deal with support questions, as ODBC is treated differently in the ADODB libraries between these two version of PHP.

Of course, if the error/problem that someone is having has no bearing on the DB they are using, then there is no need to include that kind of information. That is why I stated that only 'pertinent' information should be given.

The fact that many users haven't written a line of code by themselves before is irrelevant. It takes less than 5 minutes to find out software versions.

Look at it from the developer/support point of view. Many people just say : "I'm having problems connecting to my Database".

OK. Not being psychic, what are we supposed to do with that kind of information ? The answer, of course, is nothing. It could (quite literally) be any one of 10,000 different problems. The whole point of being strict is to press home the need to include full, and accurate information initially to get maximum benefit for all.

I for one, spend many hours helping people here. I don't get paid for that time, I do it willingly and for the benefit for all, but wouldn't that time be more wisely spent helping as many people as possible without spending 3 hours + each and every day, asking for people to include the specifics of their system ?

Don't forget too that PHP can be run on many different servers, and not all the servers have support for all the features.

In this way it is very easy to diagnose a problem, by way of the configuration information.

For example. A recent posting highlighted the difficulties one person was having making an ODBC connection. It transpired, after asking for their configuration information, that the server in use was Apache under Linux. With no UnixODBC installed, an ODBC connection isn't possible.

I agree, that a lot of people are lazy. Asking for an answer before looking for it. This is an issue addressed in Waldo's generalized version of the Guidelines posted at www.UDzone.com/go?1271. Again, at the end of the day we are not going to waste valuable time answering the same question over, and over, and over, and over again.

Waldo, and other developers/contributors to these lists are in agreement with this principle. If the guidelines aren't followed then we are less likely to help, and the forums are less likely to be of use to you or anyone else.

A badly used resource is a resource that is ceased to be used, and we don't want the forums to go this way. This is why the statement I made about deleting posts was made. This is a standard clause in FAQ's for the majority of forums and mailing lists. Why shouldn't it be applicable here ?

If you know that your post will be deleted if it doesn't have the right information in it, then aren't you like to include that information if you really want help ?

At the end of the day we are here for you, and the Guidelines have been posted for your benefit, please adhere to them as much as possible.

Tim Green
Webmaster
www.rawveg.org (Coming Soon)

Edited by - rawveg on 07/29/2001 19:01:00

I indeed have to agree with most of your points.

I just wanted you not to be too quick on deleting topic...Maybe a warning for the user before removing.

I am more for educating people with warning than with <i>"brute force"</i> action.

Then, I'll add that I'm not against the idea, I would say instead that I am favoring it...I have been helping people in this kind of topics for 7 years now, and effectivly, it is quite boring to answer always the same question...

I am myself more close to answer questions than ask them (in PHP at least)...I,ve just proposed to help you moderate this forum, because I think I can help. I'm an experienced user of PHP (currently running PHP/apache cluster on Linux)

So I won't be the one who doesn't adhere to your rules,you may be sure of that.<img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Probably you misunderstood me because I did not correctly explain my opinion. English's not my mother tongue. I'm sincerly sorry if it's the case.


Bruno

"First they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you Win..." Ghandi

Edited by - Maehdros on 07/29/2001 19:12:01

Bruno,

There is no need to be sorry, absolutely no offence has been taken, and I must commend your English. It may not be your Mother Tongue, but you are obviously better at it than some English people I know !

My post was really to highlight the fact that there are enough differences between versions for it to make a difference from time to time, but I also wanted to highlight that I wouldn't delete posts without due reason (or warning).

At the end of the day 'brute force' breeds resentment, and that isn't wanted on these forums either. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is your only option.

I appreciate your offer of support to the lists. Rest assured that your contributions are always welcome ! In fact it's good to know that I'm not alone ! <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Thank you for sharing your opinions and giving your feedback.

All the best


Tim Green
Webmaster
www.rawveg.org (Coming Soon)

Thanks guys! I think we all agree: it's best that members give as much information as possible (I'm not going to repeat the reasons again).

Fact is that still not all members do this. This is because they just don't know they should do that, or because they are lazy. Well, we never know what kind of people we are dealing with. So that is why I think we should follow the following policy:

- add a link to the Forum Guideliness in our sig, and one above the form used for posting topics.
- The first weeks refer to the Guidelines when someone posts topics without information. I learned from experience that this is a very good way to 'educate' the members.... others reading the post also soo that there are guidelines and will mention that the next time when someone makes a mistake by forgetting to post this information. I used the same technique by referring to the Pure Upload FAQ every time someone asked a question about it. Now I see people referring to it everywhere. So I do not have to do it myself anymore: it saves me time and still does not hurt the newsbies that do not know about the rules.
- After the first few weeks simply ignore the posts. This still leaves the possibility to others to answer the questions. Deleting it is not preferred by myself: it is not friendly for the poster, it takes too much time (because you have to explain over and over again why you deleted/closed the topic) and does not leave an option for others to still give it a try.

We already have lots of internal guidelines that I just have to rewrite to post on this site.

Thanks!

Waldo Smeets - www.UDzone.com Webmaster
------------------------------------------
www.UDzone.com : A dynamic Dreamweaver,
Ultradev and Fireworks site for developers
by developers.
------------------------------------------